Editor's note: Gov. Eliot Spitzer and NYSUT President Dick Iannuzzi met in late November for a wide-ranging conversation at the PFC William J. Grabiarz School of Excellence in Buffalo. Below, an exclusive New York Teacher report on their conversation.

Iannuzzi: Let's start with the achievement gap. Ending the achievement gap is a priority for NYSUT, and I know for you as well. Contracts for Excellence have great potential as a part of closing the gap. What are your thoughts on the teacher's role as a partner in the process?

Spitzer: Everything in the classroom comes back to the teachers. I begin with the premise that teachers are profoundly dedicated. They are not in this profession to make vast sums of money, but because they love what they are doing and the opportunity it presents to shape future generations. We must overcome a challenging achievement gap - a gap defined by race, gender and economics. We need to level the playing field to give each student an equal opportunity to learn and succeed. That means we need to begin earlier, we need smaller class sizes and more teachers. We need teacher training and we need mentoring programs because teachers who know how to address the problem will be in a position to overcome it.

Iannuzzi: Let me take you to one part of the Contracts for Excellence, which is the accountability piece. I have always said that teachers need to be accountable; we have to embrace accountability. One of the great challenges I hear from my members - and as someone who spent 34 years in a classroom, I certainly experienced it - is the quality of the tests and over-testing, as well as a de-emphasis on the value of teacher judgment. Any thoughts on how we're going to get past that so teachers can really buy in to accountability?

Spitzer: I agree that accountability is essential. There are, of course, many ways to measure outcomes. One of them is uniform tests that are applied across the board; but there you have the problem that they vary from year to year, and different tests get different outcomes. We've seen that very recently in state tests vs. the national tests and the challenge of how to interpret the data.

Other ways to measure accountability are more subjective, but nonetheless are, in my mind, at least as important. A school teacher can say 'Wait a minute, this student is performing and has made a quantum leap, even if it may not be measured on a standardized test.' But the subjective views of the teachers certainly should play a role in measuring outcomes.

These are some of the challenges we face as we move to bring accountability to the system universally, but it's critically important.

Iannuzzi: Great, that's crucial to us. Now, we've had these good conversations about things that are positive; let's look at an upcoming challenge. You've got a budget due in January, and I know you'd love to even do it earlier. Given the challenges you face and the importance you place on foundation aid and the Contracts for Excellence, how do you think you're going to be able to do it?

Spitzer: Well, it's going to be tough. I've been saying this for some time - and you've been hearing this from anybody in government who has a budget to put together - we are looking right now at about a $4.3 billion budget deficit. That's real money. This is not, unfortunately, a year where we anticipate that the revenues will come in higher than anticipated to help bail us out. That, in fact, has been the history of the past 10 or 12 years other than the 2001-2002 budget cycles. This year, we do not think that will happen. So we are bracing ourselves for tough decisions. My priorities, and I've said this very clearly, are to protect education. Why is that? Education is our future, and therefore I want to do everything we can to keep on that trend line of education spending that we laid out in last year's budget: that is the foundation formula - the allocation of those spending dollars to high-need districts to support teachers, teacher training, smaller class size, all of those inputs that we believe will have a real impact.

Iannuzzi: Thank you. We look forward to a budget that keeps that commitment. Let's turn to what's happening at the college level. Your higher education commission will soon report out, and it will make a statement about the importance of a world-class university in New York state. Tell me how you envision that happening.

Spitzer: We are no longer dealing with a world where an eighth- grade education is sufficient to get the jobs we want our kids to have. In the future, even a high school diploma may not be sufficient.

I believe we're dealing with a world where, at a minimum, you need a college education, perhaps even more, so we talk about education as a pK-18 program. In the public education world, our SUNY system and our CUNY system, which in aggregate are, I believe, the largest public higher education systems in the nation, are superb - but must be better. I've put together a commission of public and private thinkers about higher education, and in December I will be getting those recommendations. They will involve some governance issues; some investments in terms of faculty - more full-time faculty, no doubt; how we expand programs and create linkages between or among high schools and colleges - many different recommendations will be made. We want to build those recommendations into next year's budget if we can possibly afford to do so.

Iannuzzi: Terrific. Let me take you to two areas where we have differences - but let me start by reminding you of something that you said to me and where I concur: There are thousands of places where we don't have differences, and we shouldn't dwell on the few where we do.

Certainly one area of disagreement is charter schools. Our major concern is districts that are saturated with charters that drain the resources of our neediest districts. Are there ways you can see this current charter school law changing that will help address some of our concerns?

Spitzer: Let me begin with support for charter schools because innovation is good. Not every innovative idea works, of course, but the only way to determine that which will work and differentiate it from that which will not, is to try it. So, charter schools provide an opportunity in some cases for good experimentation. The problem of charter schools siphoning off money from the more traditional public schools is one we have thought about, and that is why we have talked about creating systems to ensure that funding for the non-charter public schools does not get dissipated. We have tried to backfill that aid to the extent that we can.

Iannuzzi: Getting back to a focus on innovation would be critical. I think, however, that ideology in too many places has moved the charter school movement far away from innovation.

Spitzer: Right.

Iannuzzi: Let me address the second area, a proposal for a private school tuition tax credit, something that we have had great differences on. Certainly we've lobbied against it and will continue to do so. For us it's a matter of principle. We feel it's the wrong direction and takes away from the needed focus on public education. But I think it's important we share our thoughts about it.

Spitzer: Here's how I view it. Right now about 15 percent of our K-12 students in the state go to non-public schools and they receive about 1 percent of public funding in the form of ancillary support - transportation expenses or testing expenses that are mandated by the state. What I have said is that of course, absolutely, unambiguously, our first obligation is to our public schools. That is a premise of everything we do.

Having said that, to the 15 percent of our students who are in the non-public world, if we can help parents who made a legitimate choice, based upon their needs and circumstances to send their children elsewhere … if we can help them support that and support those schools without not only endangering, but without undercutting what we do in the public sector, that also would be a good thing to do. I do not see a tension there, I do not see this as a zero sum game. What I see this as, rather, is a mechanism to support the broader universe of public and private education.

Iannuzzi: Fair enough. Let me take you back to the achievement gap. We just finished what we believe was a terrific NYSUT-hosted conference on the achievement gap. Two pieces that came up over and over were universal pre-K - potentially extending it to a full day - and health clinics in schools, as well as the importance of health care workers as part of making progress toward ending the gap. Your thoughts on both of these?

Spitzer: Universal pre-K is absolutely necessary. We passed a bill last year to provide the opportunity for universal pre-K. We are trying to ensure that as many school districts as possible participate in that program. I doff my hat to (Assembly Speaker) Shelly Silver, who has been pushing this for years and years and years. Early intervention, early education, early literacy - these are the primary determinants of long-term success. The data is staggering that shows the earlier you have a child reading, the larger the vocabulary of a child at a younger age, the more likely that student is to maintain performance over the years. So, this is something we are all supportive of and must be supportive of and we will continue to not only provide the funding but also to ensure, if we can, possibly, that all districts participate in this.

Iannuzzi: I want to commend you on creating your Children's Cabinet, and for putting one of our great leaders, NYSUT Vice President Maria Neira, on that cabinet. Where do you see that headed? Do you see it strengthening the connection between health care and education?

Spitzer: There are so many issues that are interwoven - you cannot just talk about education without recognizing the impact of health care. A child has asthma and therefore cannot participate in the classroom or hasn't gotten necessary flu shots and gets sick - then there's an impact on learning. You just raised the possibility of putting a nurse or a doctor in a school so we can make sure kids get the care they need. You can pick up on what might otherwise become a chronic disease that will have long-term detrimental effects. You deal with it early on and then these kids, when they're healthy, when they're eating well, when they're focused, when they're getting the health care they need, they will perform better. They'll read more and it will be a much healthier environment.

Iannuzzi: I didn't see a single one of the children who joined us a few moments ago jump up with excitement when you said flu shots, by the way!

Spitzer (speaking to children from PS 79): Let me tell you something, I got a flu shot this morning. I haven't gotten one ever before, and it didn't hurt that badly. I hate needles just as much as anybody else does, so I can tell you, you'll make it through, but getting a flu shot is important.

Iannuzzi (to the governor): The second thing I want to commend you on is your decision to recognize School-Related Professionals with a day in November that honors their contributions. They are obviously a vital part of closing the achievement gap. Any thoughts on their role?

Spitzer: What we want to do is make every person who is part of the educational infrastructure and establishment understand and appreciate how important it is and how important what they are doing is. These are folks who are dedicating their careers to what I think is the most important mission in our society, which is to raise the next generation, educate them and put them in a position to compete. Competition is getting tough out there - that's the bad news. The good news is, our kids can do it. With the help of our excellent teachers and school staff, we will give each one of them the chance and the opportunity they'll need to succeed in the global economy.

Iannuzzi: Without a doubt. I want to end on a personal note. A year ago, I shared with you some pictures of my grandchildren, and they have absolutely learned a lot and grown a lot in a year. I'm coming to the end of my first term as NYSUT president, and I think I've grown a lot and learned a lot. As you come to the end of your first year as governor, any thoughts and reflections?

Spitzer: I've always said that if you don't learn, if you don't reflect, then you're not doing it properly. We all hopefully take five steps forward, with one or two back, and that's the nature of experimentation - learning, growing. That's the excitement of any new job. It's a constant process of learning, experimenting and trying new things. That's what my job has been, that's what all jobs should be. Whether you're in pre-kindergarten or whether you're governor of a state, that's what life holds out for us.

Iannuzzi: Governor Spitzer, thank you for your commitment to education, and thank you for taking the time to speak with me.

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